Discussion:
Where to get pets microchip'ed with international chips?
(too old to reply)
dye
2006-07-17 16:03:29 UTC
Permalink
A friend is moving to europe, and for entry is required to have
the pets implanted with an RFID microchip. However, it seems there
are incompatibilites between the chips in the US vs. europe.

Where in the US (Chicago) would one get this done, or procure the required
chips (ISO 11784, or ISO 11785)? My vet didn't know, but if I
could purchase injectable chips would perform the insertion.

Thanks in advance,

--Ken
--
Ken R. Dye an optimist is a guy |
Chicago, Illinois that has never had |
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8746 much experience |
dye1146 at comcast dot net archy |
Chuck Grempu
2006-07-17 16:16:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by dye
A friend is moving to europe, and for entry is required to have
the pets implanted with an RFID microchip. However, it seems there
are incompatibilites between the chips in the US vs. europe.
Where in the US (Chicago) would one get this done, or procure the required
chips (ISO 11784, or ISO 11785)? My vet didn't know, but if I
could purchase injectable chips would perform the insertion.
Thanks in advance,
--Ken
Europe requires all American Pets to be Stuffed.

Simple prevention of diseases.

So get your little cute poochie Stuffed with pine woodchips now, donate the
meat to
Ho Lin Restaurant in Hillsdale
Upscale
2006-07-17 17:30:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by dye
A friend is moving to europe, and for entry is required to have
the pets implanted with an RFID microchip. However, it seems there
are incompatibilites between the chips in the US vs. europe.
Not sure what or how many incompatibilities there are between chips, but
there can't be that much. There was a story on the news a few months back
about a cat that got into a shipping container in the US and wound up in
France where it was identified by its chip. Cat was sent back to its
grateful owners via first class airfare.
Barnabas Collins
2006-07-17 19:43:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Upscale
Post by dye
A friend is moving to europe, and for entry is required to have
the pets implanted with an RFID microchip. However, it seems there
are incompatibilites between the chips in the US vs. europe.
Not sure what or how many incompatibilities there are between chips, but
there can't be that much. There was a story on the news a few months back
about a cat that got into a shipping container in the US and wound up in
France where it was identified by its chip. Cat was sent back to its
grateful owners via first class airfare.
My understanding is there are at eight different chips in use in the
US, none are compatible with the others.

I would add though none of the chips used in cats are RFID microchips.
RFID chips are mainly used for identifying inventory, tracking items
shipped, etc.


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Brian Merchant
2006-07-17 23:02:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barnabas Collins
I would add though none of the chips used in cats are RFID microchips.
RFID chips are mainly used for identifying inventory, tracking items
shipped, etc.
RFID stands for Radio Frequency IDentification. Everything from the
chips they put in pets to the badges you can wave in front of a door for
access use RFID. It's a generic term.
--
Brian Merchant

Puritanism didn't keep the puritans from sinning, it just kept them from enjoying it.
--Father Joe Breighner, Country Roads
Barnabas Collins
2006-07-18 20:41:24 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 23:02:12 GMT, Brian Merchant
Post by Brian Merchant
Post by Barnabas Collins
I would add though none of the chips used in cats are RFID microchips.
RFID chips are mainly used for identifying inventory, tracking items
shipped, etc.
RFID stands for Radio Frequency IDentification. Everything from the
chips they put in pets to the badges you can wave in front of a door for
access use RFID. It's a generic term.
But the ones they use in pets are not RFID. RRIDs put out a signal
which pet chips don't. You need a scanner for the pet chips.

Two completely different technologies.

Pet chips don't use radio waves where RFID does.

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Brian Merchant
2006-07-18 21:38:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barnabas Collins
On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 23:02:12 GMT, Brian Merchant
Post by Brian Merchant
Post by Barnabas Collins
I would add though none of the chips used in cats are RFID microchips.
RFID chips are mainly used for identifying inventory, tracking items
shipped, etc.
RFID stands for Radio Frequency IDentification. Everything from the
chips they put in pets to the badges you can wave in front of a door for
access use RFID. It's a generic term.
But the ones they use in pets are not RFID. RRIDs put out a signal
which pet chips don't. You need a scanner for the pet chips.
You need a scanner for RFID chips, too. They don't have their own power
source, which is why they are so small and last so long. The scanner
emits an electric field which is just strong enough to power the chip,
which responds with its ID.
Post by Barnabas Collins
Two completely different technologies.
Actually, they are the exact same technology. Google "pet RFID"
for many examples. For instance:

http://www.pet-id.net/whatispetid.htm

or

http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/169

But http://www.whynot.net/ideas/1619 makes it sound like they are two
different things. It may be that he's talking about a particular
type of RFID, since there are a number of incompatible systems
out there. We're still in the VHS/Betamax phase of this technology.

Of course, you'll also find a lot of negative opinions and speculation about
RFID chips since they are one of the current targets of the tinfoil hat
crowd.
Post by Barnabas Collins
Pet chips don't use radio waves where RFID does.
They use radio waves, they just can't transmit them without the power
provided by the scanner.
--
Brian Merchant

Puritanism didn't keep the puritans from sinning, it just kept them from enjoying it.
--Father Joe Breighner, Country Roads
Barnabas Collins
2006-07-19 17:43:48 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 21:38:10 GMT, Brian Merchant
Post by Brian Merchant
Of course, you'll also find a lot of negative opinions and speculation about
RFID chips since they are one of the current targets of the tinfoil hat
crowd.
One of the concerns is the invasion of privacy. (Lets be blunt here
folks....you have no privacy now. When you do to work/the store/
the movies/etc. you're on serveliance TV 300+ times a day. That
little fact came out in the wake of the London Subway bombing.
Add in the ability to track you cell phone calls, the tracking
of your credit cards/atm cards, the trasnponder for tolls on
yuor car, etc. and you've got essentialy no privacy now. Add
in that alot of parents in the wake of the child murders/
molestations want to "chip" their kids the same way they
chip their pets and you're privacy is eroded more.

There are cell phones that let you track where your kids are,
get camera images from where your kids, etc.

But then all this won't matter. 20+ - 30+ years from now if
they want to find you, they will enter your name in a computer,
the computer will track down your DNA from every stair rail
you touched, every door you opened, etc. You won't need
an id card/credit card/etc.


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Todd H.
2006-07-19 03:11:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barnabas Collins
But the ones they use in pets are not RFID. RRIDs put out a signal
which pet chips don't. You need a scanner for the pet chips.
Two completely different technologies.
You are very wrong.
Post by Barnabas Collins
Pet chips don't use radio waves where RFID does.
How the heck do you think the info is tranmitted across the skin if
not RF? Telekenesis? Think about it.

Scanners for RFID's emit RF to energize the chips (chips include a
rectifier to convert the RF energy to power up the chip) and a
transmitter on the chip is activated to transmit a modulated digital
bitstream to a radio receiver in the scanner.

--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/
Don Taylor
2006-07-19 08:00:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd H.
Post by Barnabas Collins
But the ones they use in pets are not RFID. RRIDs put out a signal
which pet chips don't. You need a scanner for the pet chips.
Two completely different technologies.
You are very wrong.
Post by Barnabas Collins
Pet chips don't use radio waves where RFID does.
How the heck do you think the info is tranmitted across the skin if
not RF? Telekenesis? Think about it.
Scanners for RFID's emit RF to energize the chips (chips include a
rectifier to convert the RF energy to power up the chip) and a
transmitter on the chip is activated to transmit a modulated digital
bitstream to a radio receiver in the scanner.
Since someone just asked me how he could obtain an RFID reader
for the several RFID implanted devices he has (none including
pets or maybe he didn't mention that) and I've spent a few days
reading this stuff maybe I can confuse things even more here.

As one trade magazine put it, there is so much flexibility in
RFID implementation that there is almost no standardization and
no economy from having everyone use the same thing.

RFID can, depending on what they design into it, have a range
from a few centimeters to miles. The companies are hoping this
is going to be the barcode of the new millenium and be put into
everything from shoes to pill bottles to cars to pets to ups
packages to credit cards to railroad cars.

RFID can use any one of 4-6 different frequency ranges. And it
can use any number of different chip company's incompatible
protocols, even if using the same frequency.

This was what caused an outcry when one company had been in the
pet RFID business for a while, a second company wanted some of
the business, introduced incompatible RFID devices and they
couldn't be read by the previous reader. That meant forcing
vets to buy another reader or having a pet not come up with a
code if you checked with the "wrong" reader.

And then there are even battery powered RFID and non-battery
powered (passive) RFID devices. I'm thinking the battery
powered ones are used for much longer range applications.

Finally there are read-only devices or there are read-write
devices. For read-only the code is in them, you can read it
out, that is it. For the are read-write ones they have memory
inside that can be updated, sometimes tens of thousands or even
millions of bits and growing. I think this is where the
"smart card" people want you to end up going.

However, for pets I believe these are no battery read only
devices and the only variation are the two companies that
are in the business with the incompatible RFID chips/readers,
unless there was enough backlash that they were finally
forced to make compatible parts and/or readers. But I
believe both of these required a radio signal sent to the
part that then provided the stimulus to get the code back
from inside the part. I haven't tracked down whether the
two companies were using different frequencies or just
incompatible chips/readers.
Ivor Jones
2006-07-19 10:21:57 UTC
Permalink
"Don Taylor" <***@agora.rdrop.com> wrote in message news:xt-dnUvyVrQSeyDZnZ2dnUVZ_u-***@scnresearch.com

[snip]
Post by Don Taylor
However, for pets I believe these are no battery read only
devices and the only variation are the two companies that
are in the business with the incompatible RFID
chips/readers, unless there was enough backlash that they
were finally
forced to make compatible parts and/or readers. But I
believe both of these required a radio signal sent to the
part that then provided the stimulus to get the code back
from inside the part. I haven't tracked down whether the
two companies were using different frequencies or just
incompatible chips/readers.
If it helps, I volunteer for Cats Protection in the UK (www.cats.org.uk)
and this is the system we use for all the cats that are homed from us. All
of our shelters and most vets have scanners that will read this type of
chip.

www.identichip.co.uk (click on the "pet owners" link, the others are
password protected).

Ivor
Barnabas Collins
2006-07-19 17:50:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Taylor
Since someone just asked me how he could obtain an RFID reader
for the several RFID implanted devices he has (none including
pets or maybe he didn't mention that) and I've spent a few days
reading this stuff maybe I can confuse things even more here.
As one trade magazine put it, there is so much flexibility in
RFID implementation that there is almost no standardization and
no economy from having everyone use the same thing.
I did a little searching to find out how much an RFID
reader is......$3,526.16

If I were a vet/animal shelter/etc. i'd stick with the one
I have now until they become standardized.


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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Don Taylor
2006-07-19 21:30:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barnabas Collins
Post by Don Taylor
Since someone just asked me how he could obtain an RFID reader
for the several RFID implanted devices he has (none including
pets or maybe he didn't mention that) and I've spent a few days
reading this stuff maybe I can confuse things even more here.
As one trade magazine put it, there is so much flexibility in
RFID implementation that there is almost no standardization and
no economy from having everyone use the same thing.
I did a little searching to find out how much an RFID
reader is......$3,526.16
There are little prototype boards, not the sort of thing an
inexperienced person would know what to do with, for under
$100 that can read one frequency/mfgr/model chip.

There are some handheld scanners that can read one frequency/
mfgr/model chip for $400-$600.

And the price goes up from there.
Post by Barnabas Collins
If I were a vet/animal shelter/etc. i'd stick with the one
I have now until they become standardized.
The problem pet owners had was they might go to vet A, get RFID
chip brand X put in fluffy, fluffy gets lost, found by someone
who takes this unknown cat to vet B, this vet has RFID chip
brand Y scanner, scans fluffy, comes up with nothing because
brand Y can't detect or read brand X chips, and vice versa.
That was what made people furious. All this was described in
the pet magazines a while back.

But hey, companies are out there to make a profit and
introducing incompatible products is almost always the path to
that.

I was approached by a person asking whether it would be possible
to sell a scanner that would read most common RFID chips, not
necessarily in pets, and could this be done for under $200,
maybe $150, even possibly $100.

That is only 1/3 to 1/4 the price of dedicated scanners and by
cutting a bunch of corners might be possible BUT being able to
scan "most common" chips makes this much more challenging and
potentially even impossible at any implausible price. I don't
know yet.

If it worked then you could read fluffy, read your smart card,
maybe even see if you are carrying any other RFID chips you
don't even know about.
Upscale
2006-07-19 23:09:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Taylor
cutting a bunch of corners might be possible BUT being able to
scan "most common" chips makes this much more challenging and
potentially even impossible at any implausible price. I don't
know yet.
I can sell you a tricorder cheap. Bought it from some guy selling the most
recent electronics out the back of a white van. He promised me that it was
the super duper version capable of reading anything. Naturally, I bought it
right away. Only $800.00. I'll make that money back right quick when I get
my share of the diamond mine estate that my African lawyer is executing.
Barnabas Collins
2006-07-20 16:06:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Upscale
I can sell you a tricorder cheap. Bought it from some guy selling the most
recent electronics out the back of a white van. He promised me that it was
the super duper version capable of reading anything. Naturally, I bought it
right away. Only $800.00. I'll make that money back right quick when I get
my share of the diamond mine estate that my African lawyer is executing.
Did the guy selling it have pointed ears?


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OdorDestroyer.com
2006-12-05 17:05:55 UTC
Permalink
Don,

Obviously you have done a bit of research on the issue. I wrote an
article on the subject a few years back. It's gotten hot again, and I'm
very excited that we recently had a real veterinarian (Dr. Tracy
DewHirst DVM) chime in. I'd love to hear what your opinions on my
article are. Here's the info:

Should I microchip my pet?
http://www.odordestroyer.com/newsblog/should-i-microchip-my-pet-4/

Philip


-----------------------------
http://www.OdorDestroyer.com
Powerful pet odor removers for powerful pet odors.
Post by Don Taylor
Since someone just asked me how he could obtain an RFID reader
for the several RFID implanted devices he has (none including
pets or maybe he didn't mention that) and I've spent a few days
reading this stuff maybe I can confuse things even more here.
As one trade magazine put it, there is so much flexibility in
RFID implementation that there is almost no standardization and
no economy from having everyone use the same thing.
RFID can, depending on what they design into it, have a range
from a few centimeters to miles. The companies are hoping this
is going to be the barcode of the new millenium and be put into
everything from shoes to pill bottles to cars to pets to ups
packages to credit cards to railroad cars.
RFID can use any one of 4-6 different frequency ranges. And it
can use any number of different chip company's incompatible
protocols, even if using the same frequency.
This was what caused an outcry when one company had been in the
pet RFID business for a while, a second company wanted some of
the business, introduced incompatible RFID devices and they
couldn't be read by the previous reader. That meant forcing
vets to buy another reader or having a pet not come up with a
code if you checked with the "wrong" reader.
And then there are even battery powered RFID and non-battery
powered (passive) RFID devices. I'm thinking the battery
powered ones are used for much longer range applications.
Finally there are read-only devices or there are read-write
devices. For read-only the code is in them, you can read it
out, that is it. For the are read-write ones they have memory
inside that can be updated, sometimes tens of thousands or even
millions of bits and growing. I think this is where the
"smart card" people want you to end up going.
However, for pets I believe these are no battery read only
devices and the only variation are the two companies that
are in the business with the incompatible RFID chips/readers,
unless there was enough backlash that they were finally
forced to make compatible parts and/or readers. But I
believe both of these required a radio signal sent to the
part that then provided the stimulus to get the code back
from inside the part. I haven't tracked down whether the
two companies were using different frequencies or just
incompatible chips/readers.
--
-----------------------------
http://www.OdorDestroyer.com
Powerful pet odor removers for powerful pet odors.
dye
2006-07-21 20:53:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by dye
A friend is moving to europe, and for entry is required to have
the pets implanted with an RFID microchip. However, it seems there
are incompatibilites between the chips in the US vs. europe.
Where in the US (Chicago) would one get this done, or procure the required
chips (ISO 11784, or ISO 11785)? My vet didn't know, but if I
could purchase injectable chips would perform the insertion.
FYI, most Banfield (the one in Skokie is where I went, they operate
in the PetSmart on Touhy) pet hospitals will insert BOTH chips.

They were also APHIS certified, so able to prepare the Euro Union
health certificate that was required by both the EC as well as the
USDA.

--Ken
--
Ken R. Dye an optimist is a guy |
Chicago, Illinois that has never had |
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8746 much experience |
dye1146 at comcast dot net archy |
Dan
2006-08-07 17:10:08 UTC
Permalink
Ask at the U.S. Naval Station (Great Lakes) veterinary services.
Post by dye
A friend is moving to europe, and for entry is required to have
the pets implanted with an RFID microchip. However, it seems there
are incompatibilites between the chips in the US vs. europe.
Where in the US (Chicago) would one get this done, or procure the required
chips (ISO 11784, or ISO 11785)? My vet didn't know, but if I
could purchase injectable chips would perform the insertion.
Thanks in advance,
--Ken
--
Ken R. Dye an optimist is a guy
|
Chicago, Illinois that has never had
|
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8746 much experience
|
dye1146 at comcast dot net archy
|
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